England Vs Argentina

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England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:17 am

Said to be basically the same team as Vs Australia, might be 2-3 changes. Such changes are likely to come from Corbs, Hartley, Parling, Morgan, Youngs and Trinder.

Sadly Farrell despite being the worst stand off since Josh Lewsey seems nailed on

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Raggs on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:31 am

I'd think Corbs is certain. Parling possible to likely. Hartley maybe. Youngs very likely. Trinder maybe.

Wade I wish.
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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Jonny2Hats on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:05 am

He is no way the worst stand off. I'm going to say it, contrary to opinion on here I reckon Faz is the best 10 we have. He isnt a flair 10, or particularly decisive but the rest of the team play better with him than alternatives. I also think he partners well with youngs, who would struggle with a 10 who plays flat, especially defensively.

Compared to others who have played there since wilco, i reckon he is the best.

Right. said it. Anyway, ashton should be booted and 36 should play but he needs to prove he is worth his spot. Realistically Corbs, Hartley and Youngs are the most likely to come in. Looking forward to that front row.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Flu444 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:20 am

the try he scored was pretty good, dont normally see stuff like that from Farrell.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Raggs on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:26 am

He had a bit of help, but he had a few runs for the Lions too. I still think he's OK for pace myself.

But in the end, his first pass to 36 was 37 minutes in.

He is a great tackler, I think has some pace, is obviously a bit of a leader, is usually a reliable kicker, but just doesn't distribute well enough.
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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Jonny2Hats on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:29 am

Very occasionally he does surprise with a ninja move. Domestically its a bit more often but I think part of his trouble is that he is a bit slow to make the decision, which cuts down his options at international standard. A regular partner at 12 could help a lot, its a shame he doesnt have greenwood.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:18 am

Lucky for Greenwood he wasn't constrained by such a poor 10.

Other 10s post Lewsey have been, Wilkinson, Grayson, Healey, Hodgson, Goode, Catt, Barkley, Cipriani, Burns. All vastly better passers of the ball. Lewsey and Farrell belong together as uncoordinated numpties when it comes to trying to pass.

Very worrying too that he seems to have slow decision making, possibly the only thing worse in the role than poor handling is slow decision making.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Jonny2Hats on Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:27 pm

I miss barkley, not really a 10 but he is a good player really enjoy watching him play.

I know its just my opinion, but Wilkinson aside I still prefer Farrell. I really didnt like Hodgson or Goode, and Cipriani is a preening show pony who should be amazing but isn't, all that talent being wasted is a real shame. One other fella is Flood...

I dont pretend to be the most informed, and I'm sure almost everyone on here knows more than me, but I just fancied backing Farrel as it seems no one else does. I like him and I think the team plays better with him on the pitch.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:28 pm

How does the team play better with him, and where is the scope for a test team to look more ponderous at 10? I am for instance not someone who was a fan of Ronan O'Gara, but ROG was (probably still is) a vastly more accomplished attacking 10.

Looking at the team he can do a job as a pivot even if he's not my choice. In basic terms we'd then play of Dickson, and Farrell if he gets the ball just kicks it or gives if toTwelvetrees. It's not ideal, but we could live with it. In fairness to Farrell whilst he is poor ball in hand it started going wrong inside him last Saturday, and having picked them I'd give pretty much the same team another chance.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Jonny2Hats on Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:52 pm

I cant put numbers up to prove my opinion, if someone else wants to i'll be willing to change what i think based on what the statistics show. Its just a feeling, maybe his defensive and kicking capability relaxes others around him, i don't know. Sometimes it happens.

On a different note do they use the moneyball type stat analysis in top end rugby? i know they dont in cricket and the top football prem teams do.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:23 pm

Depends on the team whether they use a moneyball type of stat analysis. All the teams have, or could have access to such stats. And as it happens Sarries are probably the biggest on such in rugby. But there's still room for the subjective.

Not sure why having Farrell kicking would relax the team. For England Flood is easily the best kicker of those in contention, if we're talking moneyball. Not that personally I'd be in a rush to pick Flood either.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Raggs on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:32 pm

You'd need to rate so many things in order to make those stats useful enough. And it would need to be inter related, missing a tackle on Wade, or being bundled by Billy V is not the same as missing a tackle Chris Bell or being bundled by Wade...

Rucks would need to be done something like this: http://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/

The effectiveness of tackles would need to be looked at too. All the stats come with such a large degree of context that you'd need to be cross referencing them to a huge degree in my mind for them to really show you something useful.

At which point you're probably better off just watching the player with the simple stats in hand.
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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:34 pm

the demented mole stats leave a lot of room for objective comment

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Raggs on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Indeed they do, but it's still a step closer to what would be needed from a moneyball type assessment.
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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Jonny2Hats on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:58 pm

Interesting read that Raggs, havnt come across it before. I was curious about how you could put value to different attributes, and how you rate certain aspects. The American sports work much more easily for statistical analysis, but i have a friend who was head hunted by Arsenal football club to help out with the statistical impact of players. His postgrad was all about how to move the stop and go method of stats from sports like baseball and american football into football.

Hmm... Im going to have to just keep watching and reading, and stay open to changing opinions. Its a hard life being a fan. I really miss playing, gonna have to find a team with a low enough standard when i move again.

Back to the Argies match, they are going to be without Hernandez.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:28 pm

Without Harnandez, and lots of others.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Basil on Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:48 pm

if your 10 is slow at decision making then you have a major problem; I would prefer a flair player who plays what he sees instinctively - it may not work all the time but when it does then it is going to be good, and it leaves the opposition unsure what is going to happen so even if the 10 passes straight away there is more likelihood of spaces

Cipriani (pre injury) for me was the best post Wilko and if he hadn't got injured then it would be Farrell who? Post injury he hasn't been the same but from what I hear he is getting back there for Sale

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:32 pm

Be interesting to see what Burt does with Cips, my guess is nothing.

But he told Cips he had to go and work on his defence, which he has, and he's made some decent contributions in such role this season. So either Burt needs to call him up, or invent a new reason not to pick him. And this whilst he continues to pick a decent lad I'm sure, and one who really wants to do well, but one who just lacks the technical skills I'd say are needed.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Guest on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 pm

I know all you guys are going on about fly halves, but can someone see the point in putting Corbisiero straight into the England squad against Argentina, when he hasn't had game time for a few weeks, and then to be possibly injured again only to miss the New Zealand game the week after. I'd rather have a fully fit Corbs against NZ rather than rushing him and possibly further injuring him?

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quick on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:57 am

Wade to start according to the DM

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Raggs on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:03 am

Joshua, he apparently went through a tough training, and he wasn't a long term injury. If he's fit, he's fit, and I'm not worried about him starting. I'd say there's a good chance we'll need him.

Quind, an Argie has posted up elsewhere that they are only missing players through injury, none witheld, I've asked what's up with Senatore (I assume injured, since Worcs have released their other argie).
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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:15 am

I'm not sure that's their absolute 1st XV given injuries. But it's close enough given I don't think England will name their actual 1st XV given injuries.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by Guest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:38 pm

Ah, l just thought with his history of injuries i thought it would be a good idea to make sure that he would be certain for the NZ

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by quind on Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Can't really not play as he might get injured. If that's the case he's frankly reach the point he should retire.

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Re: England Vs Argentina

Post by spudola1 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:26 pm

Raggs wrote:Quind, an Argie has posted up elsewhere that they are only missing players through injury, none witheld, I've asked what's up with Senatore (I assume injured, since Worcs have released their other argie).
Pretty sure Senatore is not injured, I'm sure I read in our local press earlier this week that Dean Ryan was negotiating some sort of agreement with Argentina as to Senatore's availability on this tour as he has played the least of the 3 new Argies so far (presumably to help get him bedded in to the club and up to speed with our moves - if we actually plan such a thing at Sixways anymore?!).

Agustin Creevy has just had surgery on the knee he injured against Bath on Friday and will be out for 3 months so obviously will miss all autumn internationals. Our other new Argie, Mariano Galarza starts at lock this weekend though.

Yes, here's the article (written before the extent of Creevy's injury was revealed):-
http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/sport/10782126.Dean_Ryan_hopes_for_Pumas_boost_during_internationals/
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