Youth Academy v First team training

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Youth Academy v First team training

Post by eddbutt on Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:47 pm

I've done some analysis on my Youth Academy and believe the following to be correct:

* A skill will pop every five weeks on average when a player plays every game on LTNT regardless of position
* So that's 0.2 pops per week per skill
* So that's 0.8 pops per week across four skills
* So that's 12.8 pops per season per player (0.8 pops x 16 weeks)
* A skill will pop every six weeks on average when not played
* Training a skill once it hits 14 offers no advantage
* Skills pop at the same rate regardless of how high they are

I've done some analysis on six of my first team players that I promoted on their 17th Birthday and the stats say:
* Average pops for 17-18 = 14.1
* Average pops for 18-19 = 12.7
* Average pops for 19-20 = 11.7
* Which give an average pops for 17-20 = 12.8 pops per season per player, which is identical to the Y.A.
* Higher skills take longer to pop
* Players were primarily given ten single sessions per week.  There will have been a small element of double training.

Summary:
This to me says that if you're trying to build a balanced player and are happy to have no skills over 14 at the age of 20, then it makes sense to leave them in the Y.A. as long as possible.  
Train as many key skills to 14 as possible.
It's only worth promoting a player if you're training them for the U20 World Cup and you need high specialist skills.

What are everyone's thoughts?

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Hopmans on Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Given that part of the training is based on the combined opposing skill levels (in short: the IGT of e.g. my center is based on the combined skill levels of both my opponents centers). This would mean a serious difference in IGT through the divs. A player in div 1 would get more pops than somebody in div 3. Because the are many managers in div 3 that are training international players I think this research may need to be repeated in those leagues as well.


I can take a guess that the div 1 in England have good YA. Although i havent checked this so i will stand corrected if it is otherwise. This will have a major influence on ya training.


Good research though i like it because it gives a good insight in how well training goes for teams in div 1.
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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by eddbutt on Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:26 pm

It's worth noting that all of the first team training data was collected while I was in Division 3. I'm quite the newbie to Division 1.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by eddbutt on Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:30 pm

You raise a couple of good points Hops. My players will have played every game in the first team where available, mainly on Normal. In Game Training will have some impact on training and experience that can't be 100% accounted for in my analysis.

Div 1 in England right now has 4 teams with an active YA and four without. The matches either tend to be close to draws or 100-0!

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Hopmans on Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:33 pm

oh ok. I very much like the research. It has been done well. Like I said it is very hard to do research to training in BR because every league has its own differences that create some form of disturbance. This makes it difficult to say something about other leagues. When you took the data were all the other teams in your league equipped with lvl3 ya?

Oh just saw you posted an answer to this Smile


Last edited by Hopmans on Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edd posted while i was typing :))
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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by eddbutt on Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:36 pm

In short, I don't know for certain. The YA data is from the last two seasons, so it's probably against three teams with L3 YA and 4 teams with L0 YA.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:26 am

10x level 5s has the edge on a level 3 YA over the course of a season, and such review as I've done on this has ensured no YA players being trained on a skill where they're capped. But there's not a lot in it, or course as training sort of compounds the not a lot is significant

Whether or not you'd promote a given player or leave in the YA depends on their TDSP, their current distribution of skills, shortcomings on core and then secondary skills, what plans are for the player, what plans are for other players, what training is available in the seniors, and what TT in the YA will be. If one is aiming for the best possible training then that's going to be 10x lvl 5s, but leaving a player in the YA post turning 17 is a viable option for 1-3 (and a bit) seasons

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Dazza79 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:45 am

Interesting read here edd. What if you had a possible u20 player would it be a viable option to keep him in your ya till he was 18?

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Hopmans on Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:30 pm

well i generally think not dazza. But there is a practical point at not doing so. Even when all the skills are revealed in your side it takes several weeks before all the skills of a new player is known. This means it takes some time in which to realize which ones are the best prospects. So how will you decide in which player to leave in the ya? Are you willing to risk some training (even if it is little) by leaving possibly the best prospect in the ya? When dealing with future U20 players most managers play it safe and promote them ASAP. Leaving them in the YA till they hit skill levels 14 provides good players just not the best of the best which you need to hit the U20.
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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by harrytc on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:25 pm

Hopmans wrote: When dealing with future U20 players most managers play it safe and promote them ASAP. Leaving them in the YA till they hit skill levels 14 provides good players just not the best of the best which you need to hit the U20.

I think that's it - if you are looking for an U20 superstar, promote as early as possible. If for whatever reason you are looking for a crop of decent potential first team players - leave them in until 19 and carefully rotate YA training to waste as little of it as possible.

Personally - I'm on a 100% homegrown team policy, and so I need to replace 2/3 squad members a year. For me, that means recruiting at 40 stars, and selling off anyone without the un-trainables I need to be credible. I reckon in two years time, I'll have the squad I need to stay up in Div 3. It's been close this time, but I need a series of Rather Unusual Events to save me. (Thanks to one missed conversion... :-) )

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:31 pm

Dazza79 wrote:Interesting read here edd. What if you had a possible u20 player would it be a viable option to keep him in your ya till he was 18?

Absolutely it would. But it depends on the player and the circumstances. You will lose a little on the training front Vs 10x lvl 5s, but unless you run a farm one can gain a little back with 14 TNTs

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by eddbutt on Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:14 pm

Dazza79 wrote:Interesting read here edd. What if you had a possible u20 player would it be a viable option to keep him in your ya till he was 18?

I would say that if you want to maximise a player for the U20 World Cup, then promote them ASAP. Training slows down with age, whereas the YA flatlines training, so it makes sense to promote to get their best season with the first team.

I'd recommend leaving them in the YA if you're taking harrytc's approach of a homegrown squad. You'll promote close to 100k CSR and then you've instantly got playable players to train.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by jeolmaga on Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:47 am

I'd say it goes in swings and roundabouts for me in terms of training players. For the first couple of seasons in terms of efficiency I'd leave my players in there. And then train them on 10 L5 sessions.

However this is because I believe in well rounded players such as techy/strengthy backs and speedy/attacking forwards. Such as:

6. Koba "Lock don't promote" Vizirov Add Shortcut
19 y/o (R16, D3) | 196cm | 123kg | Georgia | 30 stars
Right handed, right footed, in reputable form Stable.
A collected player with controlled discipline, despicable leadership, and horrible experience.
Energy: Weary
44%
Stamina: Amazing 14 Handling: Amazing 14
Attack: Impressive 11 Defense: Amazing 14
Technique: Sumptuous 13 Strength: Amazing 14
Jumping: Decent 8 Speed: Princely 12
Agility: Admirable 10 Kicking: Horrible 3
8. Mikheil "Flanker don't prmt" Begtabegishvili Add Shortcut
19 y/o (R2, D6) | 195cm | 126kg | Georgia | 30 stars
Right handed, right footed, in satisfactory form Increasing.
A collected player with collected discipline, reputable leadership, and horrible experience.
Energy: Weary
43%
Stamina: Sumptuous 13 Handling: Sumptuous 13
Attack: Sumptuous 13 Defense: Sumptuous 13
Technique: Amazing 14 Strength: Sumptuous 13
Jumping: Moderate 5 Speed: Princely 12
Agility: Decent 8 Kicking: Horrible 3

Who will probably be able to sub in for both the backrow and the front row if needed.

From what I've seen anyway at lower levels the skills pop quicker than level 5s. So if you do have a high leveled manager then perhaps there is a potential for YA being more efficient. However keeping in mind is that in the YA you only train 4 skills, which means that you could potentially be training 2 skills with 3 sessions (in senior) which could be more equivalent to the early training progression of YA.

I tend to leave my players to 20 years old because they turn out nice and rounded like the players above. And then if all goes to plan I'll be able to specialize them in a season or two to be quite amazing.
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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by stomalomalus on Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:42 pm

If you only have lvl4 seniors, it'd always be best to leave until just before 20 I guess, then.

Or do we have any info on that?

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:14 pm

Well the total skills gain is likely very similar, but it depends what training you have available in the seniors, what the distribution of skills are, what you're wanting to train, what YA training will be, what games they can play in the seniors, what IGT they could get in seniors Vs juniors.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by stomalomalus on Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:54 pm

So, it depends is the answer, then Wink

Anyway, how I was thinking of going about it was promoting at 19.9 for hookers, backrows and backs, and at 17 for props and locks.

Or just one player at 17 each time I train props or locks, with the others at 19.9.

I will test it out soon enough, although I have only recently started to get the first real fruits of my academy.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Dazza79 on Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:03 pm

Or is the answer that we have no data on if it helps or not?

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:59 pm

I don't have any data on lvl 4 seniors Vs lvl 3 YA, whereas I did look at lvl 5s Vs the YA. But even for lvl 4 senior training should the player in the YA have 3 skills hitting the cap that you want to train, then even supposing the YA gave a very similar TSP gain for a much lower cost it could well be you'd want them promoted anyway, or promoting a player from the YA may make what to set as TT in the YA much easier.

So it's not obfuscating to say it depends, as really the circumstances player to player and club to club will vary so much. I'll only say whether compared to training in the seniors at either lvl 4 or lvl 5 then keeping a player in the YA beyond turning 17 is very likely an option, but only an option, and as to whether you'd do it depends on a number of factors.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by harrytc on Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:45 pm

Dazza79 wrote:Or is the answer that we have no data on if it helps or not?

I think the data we have says, that if all else is equal, and we have YA3 and Lvl 5s for the senior squad....

If you are looking for up to 3 world-beating specialists every 3 years, then promote at 17 and stick'em all on 10 individual sessions in the senior squad.

If you are looking for 3 generalists every year, then promote at 19 and tinker with them once they're in the senior squad.

There's some rough edges - notably, for me, the opportunity cost of using _all_ your senior squad training time on those three guys, the opportunities that they may or may *not* have for IGT in the seniors - but that's pretty much it, I think.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Dazza79 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:58 pm

So to be clear if you want a possible representative player better to promote at 17 but for a good all round team player keep in. Or am I still reading thisbwrong

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by harrytc on Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:11 pm

Dazza79 wrote:So to be clear if you want a possible representative player better to promote at 17 but for a good all round team player keep in. Or am I still reading this wrong

That is what I do, yes.

...to put that in context, I am about to be relegated after my first season in Div 3. ;-)

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by Dazza79 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:16 pm

So was I mate so join the gang

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:57 pm

I think the one thing which may promote using the YA longer for those with U20 aspirations is low core skills, especially low multiple core skills. Yes technically lvl 5s will outperform a YA for pops at low skills is on 2 nets and a TT slot, but if you've matched up 2x nets and a TT slot on 4 skills and the skills are below 10 you almost may as well use the YA for a period, especially if the low core skills would further disincline a player's use in a match which affords exp gains.

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by harrytc on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:09 pm

While that is true...

You wouldn't always - or even often in my experience - know that your 16yr old who'd just hit 17 _had_ low core skills.

Your policy for TT might make a bit of a difference too - I tend to have YA and TT set to "opposite" core skills on a two year cycle, so sometimes the timing of that change might make a difference...

ETA: I'd still stick to the rule of thumb: "YA until 19 for first team, Promote at 17 for a Star"

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Re: Youth Academy v First team training

Post by quind on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:52 pm

All my 16 year olds who could be promoted and trained for the next U20s are fully revealed, bar the youngest who has 16/20 reveals, and will be fully revealed next week.

Though yes not knowing if core skills are low would limit choices around keeping a player int he YA.

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