England Under Eddie Jones

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by mike-wizz on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:31 pm

I think we will see the same front 5 for wales. possibly only a change at 6 in the pack but probably not. 9 might still be youngs for care to again exploit tired legs 10 will be the same 12 could see a change but i doubt it maybe rather the bench 12 replacement will be different. the rest will stay. i would have foden as my 15 cover rather than goode but thats just me

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by Dazza79 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:40 pm

How would come in at 6? Maybe move Itoje to 6 and start Lawes or launchbury at lock

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by mike-wizz on Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:20 pm

that would be possible.. or start clifford at 6. robshaw just gave away too many silly pens and had little or no effect in a positive way on the game other than the normal workrate

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by Dazza79 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:56 pm

Robshaw isn't a international level player in my eyes, just has no speed

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by mike-wizz on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:05 pm

That said Clifford isn't an international yet neither Itoge simply because they lack experience

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by Dazza79 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:16 pm

But better players than robshaw

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by mike-wizz on Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:01 pm

Yup they just need time. Just seen ewers has been called up along with manu for training ahead of Wales

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by holy_monkey on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:52 pm

Robshaw will have almost certainly been guaranteed a graceful exit from the squad. 6 nations, maybe autumn internationals, then he'll have to prove himself like everyone else.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:03 pm

Lots of sponsorship deals tied up with Robshaw as the former captain, not that keeping avenues of revenue open is likely to convince EJ to pick someone. He's already costing a few pennies by moving the team away from PHP so much.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:10 am

I don't get the Robshaw hate. Sure, he's no jackal, but his breakdown work is pretty damn good, for a 6. He's a great organiser of others. Plus, he has great tackling technique and is a very good "recovery carrier", who takes on the crap and always presents the ball well.

Saying that, he's not the future. There are a number of players with far greater potential lying in the wings. But paired with the right player, Robshaw gives balance to a backrow. Problem is, him and Haskell is not a balanced pairing, much like with Wood. I'd be happier with a Fraser in there. With BillyVs improvement, Clifford could be the 7, too, and it'd all work well. For now.

But come next year's 6N, I'd expect and hope for someone else to have stood up, someone who can truly be a world beater. Robshaw is a very good player, but he's not a NZ class backrow. That's the kind of player we should be looking for. Someone who would get into the top teams.

For now, though, Robshaw is the least of our problems.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:51 am

When you look at just how many poor rucks we have our backrow issues aren't the least of our problems, it's not poor technique but it's hardly brilliant from Robshaw, he's not the fastest, and he's getting by on workrate rather than game reading. I'd also say Robshaw is sometimes a good recovery carrier, at other times he rather flops into contact and gets no leg drive which sends us backwards. We could cite he's a lineout option, which he is, but he's also no Croft when it comes to the setpiece.

He's okay, as you note that's not really where our ambition should be.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:01 am

Take a look at this article: Rugby Analyst

Robshaw is a canny operator. I just think he's not the problem with the backrow.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:14 am

I think he is part of the problem, though I don't agree there's hatred for him. Rather it's more like Borthwick, in that there's impatience at a lesser talent getting so many games for England, whilst recognising he's an able player who works his behind off.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:37 am

But who is he a lesser talent than? That's my issue with calls for Robshaw to miss out: who is there who can honestly be said to be better at what Robshaw does?

Sure, if you want something different, don't pick him. But Eddie obviously wants what Robshaw offers, otherwise why would he pick him...

Same Analyst, Charlie Morgan is his name, probably the best rugby journo atm., again highlights positive contributions from Robshaw several times in his Ireland article: here

We struggle on attacking breakdowns. One recurring theme in this analysis articles is poor technique from Cole, who is still living on past glories. Another issue with attacking breakdowns is a lack of a "real" 7. But that gives us extra oomph on defensive breakdowns, which has been Eddie's focus, seemingly.

For me, the best "fix" in the current EPS is bringing Clifford in for Haskell. The best fix in the summer is bringing Fraser for Haskell. I would also look at bringing Brookes in for Cole. Other than that, I think we're going in the right direction for now. Let Clifford learn more. He'll replace Robshaw in the England team soon enough.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:08 pm

I wouldn't have Haskell or Robshaw in the team, I might have one of them on the bench for now, but maybe not. A shame in a way as that's a lot of caps to put to one side, but we are where we are.

Who to play blindside, well it's not ideal for me but I'd put Itoje there for now. Clifford can have a tussle with Kvesic for the 7 shirt.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by Dazza79 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:48 pm

I would like to see itoje play more at 6, he is effective at the breakdown and a good ball carrier

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:43 pm

I don't see what you gain from Itoje at 6, though... It doesn't solve any of the issues. Sure, he's quick for a lock, but he's no quicker than Robshaw or Haskell. Plus, his best position is lock. Now we have 3 locks in the squad we can all trust, let's keep it as such.

I don't see how replacing Robshaw with any of the current options solves a single one of our issues at the breakdown, so I wouldn't do it. Haskell on the other hand, I would replace. I would even do it for Wales, with Clifford coming in. Then in the summer, have Fraser there, and rotate between 2 of Robshaw, Clifford and Fraser.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:05 pm

Itoje is much better going into contact, on attack and defence, and he's already seemingly much better over the ball - though I'd grant if he plays more he'll be analysed and targeted more than he has been so far. That Itoje is good into contact would suit this England team who seem to be seeking contact work, clearing rather than securing at the ruck in essence. And Itoje is a vastly better lineout option at 6 than Robshaw, which gives us some much better options than we currently have in the setpiece, right now we look weak there.

I'm not a fan of Robshaw's hands, I know some are, though I suspect he's better than Itoje. But I lived happily enough with Croft at 6 and he has the odd handling problem, so I'll take Itoje still.

He's a bit like Worsley, without the power, pace and lineout game, I'm not surprised the Quins fans like him, there's a lot to admire, but it's not enough to interest me by the time it gets to test level. It still feels like it'd be better had we never capped him in the first place to be honest.





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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:09 am

You see, for me, he's far more than that. Sure, he tackles well, but he's a very aware player: hence the captaincy at club and country.

If you're going to ditch one of Haskell or Robshaw, I just don't see the point of ditching the one with more game smarts. And, for me, Itoje is a lock, end of.


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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by Dazza79 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:31 am

True I loved Haskell a few years back but since he became a bit of a meathead, he hasn't been the same and I always saw Haskell as 6 and croft when fit at 7. So my point is yeah maybe keep Robshaw for game smarts and drop haskell for clifford. (Just throwing it out there)

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:37 pm

I don't want to ditch Haskell or Robshaw though, I want to ditch both, partly an age thing and partly ability/potential. At most I'd keep one on the bench for now.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:16 pm

quind wrote:I don't want to ditch Haskell or Robshaw though, I want to ditch both, partly an age thing and partly ability/potential. At most I'd keep one on the bench for now.

That's what I don't get, though. Haskell's role can be given to another - for instance Clifford - without any problems. But who can do what Robshaw does close to as well as he does it?

Sure, you can change the role, but then you need to change the whole backrow's roles. And I just can't see that happening before the summer. Sure, in the summer we may have something new that means Robshaw's role is no longer needed, but until then we need him.


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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:48 pm

If you're looking for who can perform a similar role to Robshaw then we'd be looking at Wood, Haskell, Gibson, Jones, Croft, Williams, Clark (before his injury), and maybe Dowson. Of those it's only Croft who's really stood out as a class act for me, and he's coming back from a lengthy spell out and isn't what he was. If we're looking for good honest flankers who work hard but don't have that extra bit of physicality (be it work rate, brawn, pace) or game reading and decision making then we're not really lacking depth in that area. Actually that's not just true of flankers, we lack a bit of class in a good few roles.

The sort of flanker I think you'd find it hard to replace at test level would be a Kaino, Juan Smith, Richard Hill, and Robshaw for all he's a good player just isn't (sadly) one of those. Robshaw is more at the level of a Lydiate or POM, or maybe even a Fardy. And the thing with Fardy is he's a brilliant balance for other players in that Aussie pack, and maybe the only option to balance them with that bit of grunt and lineout work. I get many others, especially Quins fans, think of Robshaw more highly than I, for me he just isn't that good and he isn't the only option for a limited selection on the blindside.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by stomalomalus on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:10 am

I would love Croft, but I think he needs longer before coming back to international rugby, with all his injuries.

But of the others you mention, none come close to Robshaw's effectiveness at what he does well. I think you underestimate his game reading. He's a very good organiser.

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Re: England Under Eddie Jones

Post by quind on Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:07 pm

Pretty clear we're not in agreement on this, not even close. Just looks the definition of a good club player to me, the same as does Alex Goode in a different role. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I wish I'd been or was good enough to play at that level, but they're both just stopgaps who oddly got a chance, and even more oddly have been hanging around ever since.

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